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autodriver
06-01-2004, 11:22 PM
Your opinion ...

Is it better to stick with one brand of motor oil, or better off using different brands or rotating brands?

IN MY
06-02-2004, 11:52 AM
There was a post about using synthetics. Look into that before using them at least. Not sure about switching though.

thomasj2
06-02-2004, 05:02 PM
My opinion - pick 1 and stick with it. I ran quaker state for 20 years and fairly recently, (with the new cars), switched to Mobil 1 full synthetic. Again, strictly my opinion.

Anonymous
06-13-2004, 08:28 AM
IMHO:

The practical answer is any oil with the correct ratings such as API , ILSAC, ACEA, and factory approvals...and the correct viscosity is OK; at or below the factory interval. I'd use a synthetic blend oil like Motorcraft 5W-20.

Most people believe that it is better to pick an oil that meets or exceeds the ratings and stick with it since the engine seals are exposed to the additives and seal swell properties of one oil.

Better yet, choose an oil based on cost of the oil versus the Oil Change Interval , and allowing for operating conditions and driving style.

Example, is I had to operate in dusty or salty conditions I might choose a good oil that was less expensive since changing the oil and filter every 1000 -2000 miles would be better.

I'd still use Motorcraft 5W-20, but the Honda Dealerships oil would be fine. [ I think that's a Mobil Drive Clean 5W-20] And Penzoil 5W-20 should be OK.


If I had a car that was driven occasionally and on short trips and the engine didn't warm up enough to evaporate water that condenses in an engine, then I would change the oil every 3 months or 3000 miles.

Or I might look at a Heavy Duty Motor Oil intended for Diesel engines and had a CH-4/ CI-4 rating. The additive package and the ability to neutralize acids would make this oil a better choice. If you can find the correct viscosity. The CH-4/ CI-4 rated oils also have more detergent addives and can clean some of the sludge from an engine.

For most cars I'd look at Rotella T 5W-40, Delo 15W-40, or Delvac 1 5W-40... but these viscosities are too high for the Element.... so I'd look at Amsoil Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil.

If you operate in extreme cold or extreme heat, or a wide range of temperatures during the course of one oil change... or I wanted to recude oil loss by evaporation....then synthetic oils may be the best choice.

I'd use Mobil 1 0W-20, Redline 5W-20, Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30.

[ I might add that if the car is a family car and you suspect that other drivers may not check the oil level...a synthetic oil can reduce the oil loss enough that it may save an engine, since it may keep the oil level between the max and min levels much longer. ]

If wanted to improve mileage a bit I'd use Mobil 1 0W-20.

If I drove like a race car driver, or towed , or drove near maximum capacity I'd use Mobil 1 0W-20 or better yet Redline 5W-20.

If I thought that I would be too busy to change oil and needed the ability to run longer oil change intervals then Redline 5W-20, or Amsoil Series 2000 0W-30.

If you want to do the very best, then an oil analysis program on the used motor oil would help determine the best oil for your engine and the best oil change interval...and it often can detect problems with a coolant leak or bad injector early on.

Based on the oil analyses I've seen posted, an d my operating conditions, and goal of long term ownership and high mileage on the engine: I'd use Motorcraft 5W-20 at 4500 mile intervals or Mobil 1 0W-20 at 7000 mile intervals

Anonymous
06-13-2004, 09:24 AM
Based on the oil analyses I've seen posted, an d my operating conditions, and goal of long term ownership and high mileage on the engine: I'd use Motorcraft 5W-20 at 4500 mile intervals or Mobil 1 0W-20 at 7000 mile intervals

Membership to hondasuv.com, free. Getting a bottom line answer on the bottom line, priceless. :shock: :wink: You must have read to many of my posts. :roll: Thanks for the post.

IN MY
06-13-2004, 09:36 AM
ok, that was me. I logged in and don't know what happened? No lights on new posts, not signature, I thought something was wrong...

psschmied
06-13-2004, 10:15 PM
As long as you change the oil and filter when it is needed, use the rating specd for your engine, and use a product from a reputable manufacturer the brand of oil shouldn't matter. The only reason I can think of for sticking with one manufacturer of a conventional oil, is that you may be able to buy it cheaper in laerger quantities.

That being said, the more extreme your driving conditions, the more likely you are to benefit from filters and oil that have extended wear characteristics.

If you choose to use a synthetic, you will want to stick with one brand. There are many types of synthetics, there are substantial differences between them. Some are "pure", some are "blended" with conventional ol. There is no economic or performance benefit to using a synthetic blended oil. "Pure" synthetics may be 100% synthesized or chemically altered conventional oil.

Pure synthetic oils will give you an extra margin of performance at temperature extreme, when you drive mainly very short trips, and when the engine needs to work at capacity for prolonged periods. Premium or multiple stage oil filters will help in the same conditions and when exposed to high levels of dust or airborn smoke.

If you mix 2 synthetics of different brands,because their chemistries are different, the result may be no better than using a conventional oil.

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 10:34 AM
I do think that different oils can still produce different results. And this is why in different engine models, even from the same manufacturer, a given oil can produce better, or worse, results.


While the demanding specifications like factory approvals, Ilsac GF-3, API SL, or ACEA * have resulted in superior oils across the board .... oils are still made with different base stocks, different additives, and different amounts of additives.

Therefore oils have different costs, different design philosophies, and produce different results in oil tests.


Redline , Mobil 1 , Castrol Syntec, and Amsoil are all expensive synthetic oils with higher levels of more expensive additives and all use more expensive base stock blends.

Redline uses Group V. very expensive Group V Polyol Ester** ....( used in jet engine oils,and refrigerants, a higly polar molecule that sticks to metal and protects at startup ).......; and lots of Moly, and ZDDP.

Mobil 1 uses Group IV PAO, Group V Esters, and Group V Alkylated Napthalene. And a more moderate but high quality additive package with more boron

Castrol changes formulations but probably uses Group III severely hydrocracked mineral oil, Hydrocracked Slack Wax, and some Group IV or Group V. The European made oils seem to have more PAO and Esters than the US made oils . Castrol also uses some very good additives in healthy levels.

Amsoil uses Group IV PAO and an expremely robust addive package, especially in its Series 2000 and Series 3000.

Motul has some 100% Ester oils made with Di-Basic Acid Esters. As did earlier formulations of Amsoil.

Bear in mind tha formulations change and some of this information is based on avalable information not full blown high dollar chemical analysis.




Redline and Amsoil Series 2000/ 3000 are better suited to running to the maximum oil change interval approved by the manufacturer while in warranty, and 12.000 to 15,000 Oil Change Intervals (OCI) for Redline and up to 25,000 mile OCI or 1 year for Amsoil...once the engine is out of warranty.

Mobil 1 and Castol Syntec do make oils that can run longer oil change intervals but they must have the BMW Long Life approval and/or the Mercedes 229.5 approval . So they would be ACEA A5-02

So the oils are all quite different in design and best application.

Motorcraft 5W-20 is synthetic Group II+ hydricracked oil blend that meets the Ford and Honda requirements and is a bargain at $1.42 per quart...and it tests extremely well in the Used Oil Analysis posts for our Honda 2.4 I-Vtec engine.

The Mobil supplied 5W-20 oil that some Honda dealerships use is also good, as is the Penzoil 5W-20.

And many people who are interested in lubrication issues have been suprised that 5W-20 has tested so well that many have begun to rethink the idea that viscosity protects the engine. The 5W-20 has shown that lower Viscosity Index Modifiers, coupled with better additives and base stocks. and better pumpability at start up has produced lwss wear that a 5W-30 oil.

My preference is Mobil 1 0W-20 at 7000 mile oil change intervals or Motorcraft 5W-20 at 4500 mile intervals.

I may revise my opinion or interval after used oil analysis.

And I think that choosing the best oil for an application, and using one oil and topping up with the same oil is a good practice.

But any rated oil will do the job, and topping up or changing oil with an approved oil is more important than waiting a while to find the preferred oil.


* ACEA performance levels valid from 2002 for petrol-driven passenger car engines

A2-96 Issue 3 Standard gasoline category. For operation with normal change intervals and loads, requirements unchanged since 1996.

A3-02 Stable viscosity (stay in grade) category with stricter requirements. For high-power engines with long oil change intervals approved by the manufacturer.

A1-02 Energy-saving, catalyzer-friendly category with stricter requirements. Developed especially for low-friction engines, low viscosity (2.9 mPas < HTHS < 3.5 mPas) engine oil.
Not for use with certain engine types.

A4 -xx Category to be introduced for gasoline direct injection Otto engines with lean-mixture operating capability.

A5-02 Energy-saving, stable viscosity (stay in grade) category with stricter requirements. Developed especially for high specific power engines operating with low friction, low viscosity (2.9 mPas < HTHS < 3.5 mPas) engine oil. Suitable for long oil change intervals approved by the manufacturer.
Not for use with certain engine types.

http://kenoanyag.mol.hu/english/products/lubricant_encyclopedia/rovat_cikkei/doc123828

---------------------------------

** "Both Mobil and Redline use polyester oils with their PAO's, as does Amsoil and others.

Trimethylpropane (TMP) esters and pentaerithyritol esters (PE, DiPE) are two most used polyol esters.

The butylate and adipate esters are the most used di-esters.

IN mobil's case, they use the timethylene (TME) tri-esters, but they are still polyol esters."

"The true, ester based synthetics like Motul use the less expensive, lower viscosity, di-basic acid esters, ie diesters. Amsoil also used diesters from 1972 until about 1980, when they went to the blended PAO/Ester basestocks.

PAO basestocks can use the same additive chemistries developed for petroleum oils, they are more stable in the presence of moisture and their effect on seals is more benign. The advanced PAO's have higher VI's than do almost all esters and their low temp properties are noticably better.

PE's are generally used in small amounts to balance out seal swell characteristics, function as a carrier for oil additives and provide some additional solvency ...."

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005941#000000

jonmichael1960
07-04-2004, 10:51 AM
If Mobil 1 is so good, why have they changed formula at least 3 times and redline has stands alone as group V synthetic and unchanged. I have run Mobil 1 since 1979 only because I can't find and afford Redline.

Redline Rules,

jon

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 11:53 AM
If Mobil 1 is so good, why have they changed formula at least 3 times and redline has stands alone as group V synthetic and unchanged. I have run Mobil 1 since 1979 only because I can't find and afford Redline.

Redline Rules,

jon

Mobil 1 has changed and will continue to change as knowledge, base stock costs, patents, refineries, cometition in the market, and approvals change.

Mobil 1 used to have a lot of Di-Basin Acid Ester which caused seal problems...then PAO was blended in to create a balanced , and less expensive formula.

Then Alkylated Napthalene was added to create Tri-Synthetic

Then Exxon merged with Mobil and brought some excellent high viscosity indexSuper-Syn PAO oils to the mix.... this allowed wider ranges of temperature and viscosity without the rather undesirable polymeric Viscosity Index Modifiers**

This brough us to the current Super-Syn formulation which is quite good.

http://www2.exxonmobil.com/files/PA/AP/SuperSynBrochure.pdf

http://www.prod.exxonmobil.com/basestocks/pdf/Basestocks_Product_Brochure_US.pdf


This post from George Morrison an STLE andf Mobil distributor was on point;

>>>>"With the reformulation of Mobil 1 a little over a year ago to the
"Tri-Syn", the major change was the elimination of the ester component. The ester was replaced by chemistry which enabled the same positive attributes of the ester (seal swell, natural detergency, etc.) without the negatives (moisture retention, etc.).

Each base stock has cost, solvency, additive miscibility, service life, and performance variables.

I think Mobil 1 is an excellent oil, and has accomplished its goals for price , Oil Change Interval, and market segment.

If you want a better oil go to Redline ...it costs $7.00 per quart vs $4.77 for Mobil 1 but it is better suited for hard drivng and 10,000 to 12,000 OCI vs moderate driving and 7000 OCI for Mobil 1.

Cost per mile is identical at those drain intervals

If the engine is modified or driven hard use Redline

---------------------
Here is a recent used oil analysis (UOA)



Redline 5W-40


Car driven in Vail,Colorado ......so lots of sustained near wide open throttle up 7% grades at 8000 ft up to 11,600 ft , down to Denver at 5280 ft and back again.


2003 Subaru Outback

18000 miles

OCI 8000 miles

Make up oil = 0

Redline 5W-40


"No problems showed up in the initial sample from your Suby. Almost all wear read at or below
averages for this type of engine, which is a very good indication of normal wearing parts and
especially good since this oil was run longer than average. Universal averages show normal wear
from the 2.5L after about 5,500 miles on the oil. A minor amount of fuel was present. It didn't lower the viscosity, so we are not concerned about it. Insolubles were low, showing good oil filtration. At 18,000 total miles, everything looks great. Suggest going 10,000 on the next oil."



-------------------


** (which can shear and burn and cause problems with sticking rings and reduced protection through lowered Viscosity especially Hight Temp. High Shear performance and Kinematic Viscosity)


---------------------------------

ExxonMobil Introduces New Viscosity of Synthetic Mobil 1 with Supersyn



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http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_PA/WorldwideEnglish/Newsroom/Newsreleases/chem_nr_051102_1.asp




Mobil 1 0W-20 Synthetic Motor Oil With SuperSyn Recommended for Newer Honda, Ford, Lincoln and Mercury Vehicles

FAIRFAX, Virginia (November 5, 2002) -- ExxonMobil Lubricants & Specialties today announced the introduction of a new 0W-20 viscosity grade of Mobil 1(R), the world's leading synthetic motor oil. The new Mobil 1 0W-20 with SuperSyn(TM) anti-wear technology will provide excellent fuel economy while delivering exceptional cleanliness and wear protection in high-temperature, hot-running engines. It is designed specifically to benefit cars that have used 5W-20 viscosity applications, such as newer Honda, Ford, Lincoln and Mercury cars, trucks and SUVs (sport utility vehicles), and whose owners wish to use fully synthetic products.

"Mobil 1 0W-20 raises the bar on motor oil performance for newer Ford, Lincoln, Mercury and Honda cars, trucks and SUVs because it protects engines under circumstances where conventional oils can't, while helping improve fuel economy," said Tom Olszewski, group technical leader, ExxonMobil Lubricants & Specialties. "In day-to-day driving or extreme use, cold weather or hot weather, Mobil 1 0W-20 will help deliver unparalleled performance, will improve engine cleanliness, and deliver longer engine life."

"Today's automotive engines are more powerful, more efficient, and last longer, but they are also tougher on the motor oil protecting them," said Marni Mirowitz, ExxonMobil Lubricants & Specialties' passenger vehicle lubricants marketing manager for North America. "Mobil 1 0W-20 will help consumers better protect the investment they have in their cars and get better engine performance out of it at the same time."

Mobil 1 0W-20 is designed specifically for vehicles where 5W-20 or 0W-20 motor oil is recommended. Mobil 1 0W-20 meets the performance requirements of Ford specification WSS-M2C153-H and Honda service fill requirements for 5W-20. It exceeds the toughest industry standards, including ILSAC GF-3 and API Service SL, SJ/CF warranty requirements for gasoline and diesel engines. Mobil 1 0W-20 has been tested to be fully compatible with engine seals and is compatible with conventional motor oils.

Mobil 1 0W-20 is recommended for most 1996 and newer Honda Civics; 1998 and newer Honda Accords; 2000 and newer Honda Insights; 2002 and newer Honda CRV and Odyssey vehicles; many 1997 and newer Honda Acuras; and most 2001 and newer Ford, Lincoln and Mercury cars, trucks and SUVs.

Benefits of Mobil 1 0W-20 with SuperSyn

Outstanding wear protection, even under the most extreme conditions.
High-temperature durability, continuing to protect engines at temperatures up to 400F.
Enhanced performance for cold weather driving. Mobil 1 0W-20 is capable of flowing at extreme low temperatures where conventional oils are essentially solid.
The proprietary SuperSyn anti-wear system excels in high-stress, high-temperature conditions.
Excellent engine cleanliness, with better sludge protection and reduced piston deposits.
Promotes fuel economy.
Ideal for stop and go driving, idling for extended periods, and driving in dusty conditions.


Mobil 1 0W-20 is the newest "0" viscosity in the Mobil 1 family of fully-synthetic motor oils. Mobil 1 0W-40 is factory fill in Porsche, Mercedes Benz AMG and Aston Martin vehicles and Mobil 1 0W-30 is popular for cold weather performance and enhanced fuel economy. Mobil 1 is also available in 5W-30, 10W-30, 15W-50, 10W-30 viscosity grades.

Mobil 1 0W-20 with SuperSyn will be available through a wide range of retail and mass merchandisers, auto parts stores, Mobil service stations and some Exxon service stations. Many quick lube shops and car dealerships will also carry Mobil 1 0W-20 and can install it for consumers.

ExxonMobil recommends that consumers consult their owner's manuals and follow their vehicle manufacturer's recommendations about motor oil viscosity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ExxonMobil News Media Desk: (703) 846-4467

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 12:44 PM
PAO's

Window of Opportunity?

BY DAVID MCFALL

The auto industry is a few months away from issuing draft specifications for
the next generation of motor oils. But there have been enough talk and hints to
reasonably infer that these improved "GF-3" oils will require a substantial
tightening of volatility. "Volatility" as measured by the principal, European
test called NOACK, is the amount of oil lost (the light molecules) over time at
a given temperature and pressure. It has a direct impact on high temperature
engine oil effectiveness-especially on viscosity, emissions and oil
consumption. Today's oils have a NOACK volatility limit of 22 percent.
Volatility losses for the coming GF-3 oils-due on store shelves just after the
turn of the century could quite possibly be limited to 15 percent for all
grades.

To meet this stricter requirement, there's a good chance that motor oils made
with conventional, solvent refined base oils will have to be supplemented with
a performance "boost" of hydroprocessed base oil or a synthetic base oil-that
is, polyalphaolefin (PAO).

This was clearly on Don Johnson's mind when he pointed to the new, half-billion
dollar, hydrocracking refinery brought on line earlier this year by Pennzoil
and Conoco at Lake Charles, La. "We now produce a leading technology base
stock," noted the Pennzoil vice president for product support, "... [and]
strongly believe that this kind of base stock will be needed to formulate for
GF-3."

But Dave Goebel, Mobil Chemical Co's. worldwide synthetic fluids business
manager, upon reading this might well jump to his feet and proclaim, "Hold on.
Not so fast." Mobil Chemical has been producing a leading base stock for
decades and strongly believes it may be an important part of GF-3 formulation.
It's called polyalphaolefin, a fully synthetic base stock.

Johnson and Goebel may both be right. The question is how much of each for
GF-3? And, of course, at what price?

Making PAO

In a late August interview, Jim Willis, manager of Mobil Chemical's Beaumont,
Texas, facility, described the PAO manufacturing process in his plant. Willis's
family has deep roots in both the Beaumont area and with Mobil: in 1929 his
father began work at the Mobil refinery and Willis has now completed his own
37th Mobil year-with a few more to go.

"Conceptually, it's really pretty simple," described Willis. "Mineral
paraffinic lubricant base oils are obtained by separating out, that is
removing, certain non-beneficial parts of the feedstock. Synthetic base oils,
PAOs, on the other hand, start with a specified petrochemical feedstock which
is then completely changed chemically; a brand new product is designed and
created through a chemical reaction. Consistency counts as much in refining and
blending as in other fields. During the recent baseball World Series, the
umpire would throw out a new ball to the pitcher after a home run. That ball
was identical to the one hit out of the park. All the baseballs used in the
Major Leagues are the same-and in that they resemble PAO.

However, if you mix baseballs with softballs, golf balls, tennis balls or
billiard balls, you do not have the equivalent of PAO. But you do have the
equivalent of a mineral oil refined by solvent extraction or hydroprocessing.

Mobil Chemical's definitely a big player, maybe the biggest, in the PAO game.
And it started early with initial experiments which led to a commercial PAO
product in the early 1960s.

Today Mobil Chemical offers a full range of PAOs and other synthetic fluids
such as esters. These are the base oils used in formulations like Mobil 1,
probably the most recognized name of all synthetic motor oils.

Sandi Davis, Mobil Chemical's worldwide PAO product manager, ties esters into
the PAO function. "Typically, additives are not readily soluble in PAOs, and
esters help bridge that gap. By volume they're as high as 20 percent of the
final motor oil] formulation. Further, they also provide other essential
lubricating properties."

The Benchmark Oil?

But Davis quickly focuses on PAOs and the quality issue. "PAOs are the
benchmark engine and industrial base oil. They're the best. No question. As far
as the new hydroprocessed base stocks, we welcome them because they turn the
focus on the quality issue. These issues may even have a positive marketing
impact on PAOs but their impact is likely to be more on the solvent refined
base stocks."

At the same time she is rueful about what she sees as a new level of confusion
in the base oil market. "Very high viscosity index base stocks are not
synthetics. Period. They are not made by a synthetic process that starts with
specific raw material which is built to produce a specific end product. While
they're definitely better than solvent refined base oil, they don't have the
performance properties of a PAO. They never will and that claim shouldn't be
made."

Mobil Chemical's Dave Goebel, who was mentioned earlier in this article, says,
"Our experience with PAO technology allows us to tailor the chemistry for added
value, which in turn will open up many applications. For example, at Beaumont
we've just started to manufacture a new PAO product which we've trade marked
SuperSyn. While traditional PAO chemistries typically range from 2 to 100
centistokes [viscosity at 100 degrees C], we can now manufacture SuperSyn to as
high as 3,000 centistokes. It gives a lot of VI boost-300-plus VI-as well as
viscosity boost. Like everyone else, we're trying to differentiate ourselves
and we think SuperSyn is a step-out technology."

Other Horizons

In the engine oil arena, Goebel offers an intriguing idea: "It is interesting
to observe how the new PAO chemistries are being incorporated into lubricants.
Some formulations may use PAO more as an additive than as a base fluid, which
is a different approach, because of the new characteristics of our PAOs such as
SuperSyn."

Engine oil is, by far, the biggest market for synthetic lubricants. But Mobil
Chemical devotes fully half of its effort to applications other than engine
oils including, as Goebel notes, "gear oils, automatic transmission fluid,
hydraulic fluids and a broad range of industrial products. Some of the new
chemistries under development provide improved biodegradability. We understand
how to tweak the molecule to satisfy very narrow niche markets."

Goebel is optimistic about expanded market penetration for PAO. He says, "We're
bullish on PAO, which has grown historically at more than 10 percent a year,
and we believe this level will continue and even move up a few percentage
points in both engine oil and other applications. One example of this is the
market expansion we are seeing in the Pacific Rim."

PAOs cost more to manufacture than mineral base oils. Goebel readily
acknowledges this but points, again, to what he considers to be the element
that is moving inexorably to the fore-performance-driven by tightened OEM
specifications in the marketplace and by markets where customers are able to
use PAO chemistries which demonstrate a clear performance edge.

"PAOs are far and away a superior base fluid product. That's where the market
is heading, that's where we are now and where we, as a company, will continue
to be."


http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=20010328212801.07883.00000999%40ng-ma1.aol.com&rnum=5&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DSuperSyn,%2Bvailchalet2%26hl%3Den%26l r%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26start%3D0%26sa%3DN

Anonymous
07-04-2004, 01:37 PM
I still rate the Redline as superior to Mobil 1 and use Redline in most of my vehicles.

I started using the Mobil 1 0W-20 in the 2004 Element, but only at 7000 mile OCI.

I also like the Motorcraft 5W-20 and 5W-30 synthetic blend oils...they are great oils and only $1.42 per quart. Great for 3000 to 4500 mile OCI.

Conoco supplies their Clear Blend oil to Motorcraft.

Chevron Supreme IsoSyn is another great oil, as is the Chevron Delo IsoSyn 15W-40 Diesel/ Fleet CH-I / SL oil.... and that is what I use in our Turbo Diesel.

cburton
11-19-2004, 12:49 AM
Are we talking about the stuff Jed Clampit ran across while huntin' up some vittles???

N_Jay
11-19-2004, 06:13 AM
[quote="Anonymous"]I still rate the Redline as superior to Mobil 1 and use Redline in most of my vehicles. . . . [quote]

Based on?

MikeN
11-19-2004, 07:24 PM
Faster sounding name? :lol:

MikeN
11-19-2004, 07:26 PM
Are we talking about the stuff Jed Clampit ran across while huntin' up some vittles???

No, the stuff from that black pit that captured Riker on Star Trek TNG. :lol: