Realtime Drive

[sunny123]

Hey everyone, I'm a proud owner of an 03 ex-l, and was wondering if anyone has seen a difference with the realtime all-wheel drive on and off? I know that the car has a sensor that senses any changes in the road and would activate the system, but I have not felt it so far. I'm in Toronto, and it just started snowing this evening. I took the car out (in about 25cm of snow), and still I haven't felt any difference. Is there something wrong? Thanks..... :lol:

[cyemm]

Hey everyone, I'm a proud owner of an 03 ex-l, and was wondering if anyone has seen a difference with the realtime all-wheel drive on and off? I know that the car has a sensor that senses any changes in the road and would activate the system, but I have not felt it so far. I'm in Toronto, and it just started snowing this evening. I took the car out (in about 25cm of snow), and still I haven't felt any difference. Is there something wrong? Thanks..... :lol:Hey, Varmint wrote this fabulous explanation about honda's system and why you can only feel it intermittently.

History - The CR-V is not the first Honda to use the moniker Real Time 4 Wheel Drive (RT4WD) to describe it's AWD system. From 1987 through 1991, Honda offered a Civic Wagon with RT4WD. However, that car used a slightly different system. The RT4WD in the Civic functioned in a similar manner, but it used a viscous coupling to mate the engine to the rear wheels. The newer design in the CR-V uses a multi-plate clutch pack to accomplish the same goal.

RT4WD Operation - I'll try to answer quite a few common questions in this first section. Bear with me as I ramble a bit.

The AWD system in the CR-V is probably best described as an automatically engaging four wheel drive system. For the most part, it routes power from the front to the back whenever a wheel loses traction. There is no side to side distribution of power. As soon as traction is restored, the system disengages and the vehicle returns to a purely FWD mode. The amount of time it takes to engage is minimal. I've watched it on slow-motion video and in the real world. It takes little more than a quarter turn of the tire for RT4WD to engage the rear wheels. The more slippage you have, the more power it sends to the other wheels. RT4WD will work when driving in reverse. There is no indicator light to show when the rear wheels have been engaged. There is no way to lock the system as with Honda's other AWD system, VTM-4. If you were to force RT4WD to work all the time you'd break it or damage the entire drivetrain. The AWD CR-V may be towed "flat" as might be done behind a motor home. See the owner's manual for instructions. RT4WD will disengage when the brakes are applied. This allows the ABS to brake the front and rear wheels at different speeds as is sometimes necessary.

Technical Description - The RT4WD system is comprised of five basic components. There is a transfer case attached to the transmission, a propeller shaft running from the front to the rear, a dual pump and clutch system at the end of that shaft, a rear differential between the rear wheels, and two half-shafts which direct power to the rear wheels.

Little is known about the transfer case up in the front of the CR-V. Most of Honda's documentation focuses on the pump system built into the rear differential. What we do know is that it allows power to be routed from the transmission to the rear wheels through the propeller shaft. Think of it as the first step on the road to powering the rear wheels.

The second step is the propeller shaft that stretches from the transfer case to the rear differential. This propeller shaft is constantly spinning. It never stops. Well... unless you put the car in park and shut it off. Even though the shaft is constantly spinning, it does not send power anywhere. The connection at the transfer case spins the propeller shaft, but the propeller shaft isn't turning anything at the other end. Simply put, the shaft isn't long enough to reach the rear differential without help.

Step three for this distribution of power is where things get interesting. The pump and clutch system ahead of the rear differential makes the decision as to whether or not the differential deserves to get any of the power that the prop shaft is constantly offering. I wrote above that the propeller shaft isn't long enough to reach the rear differential. Well, the pump system allows the shaft to "grow" just enough to reach and make the connection. Here's how the pumps make the decision to send power, and how the clutches make the necessary connection.

The differential housing contains two hydraulic pumps and two wet clutch packs. Both are positioned just ahead of the differential. The propeller shaft powers one of the hydraulic fluid pumps. The rear wheels power the other hydraulic pump via the half-shafts and differential. Both pumps are responsible for circulating hydraulic fluid between one another. As one pump pushes, the other pulls. It's sort of a ying and yang thing. By the way, this is the same fluid that needs to be changed every now and then (see the earlier article). When the propeller shaft and the rear wheels are spinning at the same rate, the pumps are pumping at the same rate. Under those conditions, the pressure of the fluid is stable. If either the prop shaft or the rear wheels start spinning at a different rate, the fluid builds pressure within the pump system. This pressure pushes open a valve in the system and fees that pressure to the two multi-plate, wet clutch packs. This pushes to the two clutch packs together and they form a handshake between propeller shaft and the rear differential. The propeller shaft has "grown" long enough to reach the differential.

All our ducks are lined up, so let's recap for a second. Now we have power running from the transmission, through the transfer case, and along the propeller shaft. The propeller shaft is now linked to the rear differential via the connection made by the two clutch packs.

So what does the differential do? The differential is step four. It routes the power down each of the half-shafts to the rear wheels. It's a big Y joint. Normally, the differential is just spinning freely. It is powered only by the rear wheels, which are, in effect, being dragged by the front of the vehicle. When the clutch packs connect, the engine becomes the source of power. Now the engine is driving both the front wheels and the rear wheels, through this long series of mechanical connections. Welcome to four wheel drive.

All this happens very quickly. As I wrote above, the connection and power distribution process can be completed in the time it takes for a wheel to make one quarter rotation. The system also disengages just as fast. As soon as the clutch packs make their connection, the propeller shaft and rear differential start working in unison. That restores equality between the two pumps, which means no more pressure, which means nothing to keep the clutch packs engaged and they disconnect.

While driving on slippery conditions in the real world, it is likely the system will be cycling back and forth between engaged and disengaged frequently. The process is pretty much seamless. Ordinarily, people cannot feel the power transfer happening. Because the difference in rotational speeds controls the pressure in the system, it also controls how much power is sent to the rear wheels. If there is a big difference in pumps speeds, more power is sent rearward. If there is only a slight difference in speed, then only a little pressure is applied to the clutch packs and only a little power is sent through the rear differential. If you were to slam your foot down on the accelerator and suddenly create a good deal of wheel spin, the system will slam the rear differential with power from the engine. The sudden onslaught of torque at the rear wheels may cause them to break traction and send you spinning. That is one reason why experienced CR-Vers will tell you to drive your CR-V like it is front wheel drive and trust that the system is working.

Another characteristic of the design is its ability to overheat. As the clutch packs engage over and over again, they build up heat. If this generates enough heat, the system opens a venting valve and shuts down to cool off. The CR-V will still function in FWD mode. RT4WD resumes as soon as the heat is dissipated. This does not damage the system. The process prevents damage. Furthermore, in the five years I've been reading about the CR-V, I've only heard of two or three reports describing this. One was during testing by a magazine, so you can bet they'd been pushing the vehicle to test its limits. Personally, I have driven for hours on snowmobile trails without overheating the RT4WD unit.

Honda claims that the RT4WD system has several advantages over full-time AWD or a traditional 4X4 system. They claim that RT4WD allows the vehicle to achieve higher fuel economy, generate less vibration or noise, reduce weight, and offers less difficulty adapting it for use with ABS. Is that just marketing hype? Yes and no. The truth is, there is no real way to compare most of these because there are many factors that add up to the end results. For example, we cannot compare NVH levels because the vehicle's tires, sound insulation, and chassis rigidity also play a part in the overall NVH of the car. We all know that the CR-V is not the best equipped vehicle when it comes to sound insulation. That said, there are a few ways we can compare at least two of these claims.

We'll start with weight. MotorTrend once published that the RT4WD system weighed only 15 lbs. I think they meant the transfer case mounted on the transmission. Comparing the 2WD LX with the 4WD LX reveals a more realistic difference of 117 lbs. Doing the same with the first generation CR-V shows a difference of 110 lbs. These figures include the transfer case, the propeller shaft, the rear differential, and the half shafts that deliver the power to the wheels.

If we compare the CR-Vs competition in the same manner, we find that the Escape's AWD system weighs about 165 lbs. The VUE's is between 121 and 152 lbs (depending on whether we compare the I4 CVT models or the V6 5AT models). Both of those designs are reactive systems, like RT4WD. Looking at full-time AWD systems, we find more significant differences. AWD adds 222 lbs to the RAV4 and between 209 and 222 lbs to the Santa Fe. I cannot compare the Forester as they do not offer a FWD model. These numbers do not necessarily reflect the exact weight of the AWD unit as they may include additional hardware like a limited slip differential. Still, it appears the CR-V leads the pack and Honda speaks the truth.

On fuel economy, we cannot compare vehicle to vehicle. All of them have different engines, curb weights, and aerodynamics. But if we take each AWD model and a similar FWD model of the same car, we can make a general comparison. It turns out that the CR-V, Escape, and VUE (the reactive systems) all lose 1 mpg in city driving and 2 mpg on the EPA highway cycle. This amounts to an average loss of 1.5 mpg with the addition of AWD. The RAV4 and Santa Fe both average a loss of 2 mpg. Depending on whether you drive more highway or city miles, you may see no difference at all or as much as 5%. For reference, 8% is about the same difference manufacturers expect to get from designs like GM's "displacement on demand" engines, or the 7-10% gain for a variable valve system like Honda's VTEC.

It appears that reactive systems are generally more fuel efficient than full-time systems, but the RT4WD system shows no advantage over the other reactive AWD designs. Furthermore, we don't know if this advantage is a result of the reactive nature of the design, or simply the fact that the hardware adds less weight than full-time AWD.

['Curly Q Links']

When it gets really icy and sticky, ask you passenger to step outside. Punch it, and your passenger will see the front wheels spin, then the rears will spin too.

If you really want to FEEL it working, try doing a 'park brake U-turn' on an icy parking lot. When you crank the steering wheel and lock up the rear wheels with the park brake, instead of the rear end obediently flying around, all four wheels stop turning and you find yourself in a four-wheel sideways skid. Great sensation if you're not expecting it :-(

DON'T TRY THIS IN TRAFFIC, thanks. 'Curly'

[wangofree]

Awesome post Cyemm. :shock: Best explanation I've ever read. Thanks.

[Dios67]

When it gets really icy and sticky, ask you passenger to step outside. Punch it, and your passenger will see the front wheels spin, then the rears will spin too.

If you really want to FEEL it working, try doing a 'park brake U-turn' on an icy parking lot. When you crank the steering wheel and lock up the rear wheels with the park brake, instead of the rear end obediently flying around, all four wheels stop turning and you find yourself in a four-wheel sideways skid. Great sensation if you're not expecting it :-(

DON'T TRY THIS IN TRAFFIC, thanks. 'Curly'

For some reason this just doesn't sound safe in an SUV... Even if it is a mini-ute.

[cyemm]

Awesome post Cyemm. :shock: Best explanation I've ever read. Thanks.

I simply copied it from a post by " Varmint" lower on the page. All credit goes to him. I agree, though, it's a really well written dissertation.

But I can't help wonder what'd happen if you bypassed the clutch packs with a longer custom propshaft, eliminating the clutch packs and making it full time 4 wheel drive. Then, a set of air lockers front and rear. Dune Buggy heaven!

[N_Jay]

Awesome post Cyemm. :shock: Best explanation I've ever read. Thanks.

I simply copied it from a post by " Varmint" lower on the page. All credit goes to him. I agree, though, it's a really well written dissertation.

But I can't help wonder what'd happen if you bypassed the clutch packs with a longer custom propshaft, eliminating the clutch packs and making it full time 4 wheel drive. Then, a set of air lockers front and rear. Dune Buggy heaven!

The driveline is not designed for the wear and tear or full time 4WD.

Just buy an old jeep and have fun.

['Curly Q Links']

It wouldn't be too hard to mod the rear diff with an electric valve (externally) and a couple of timers linked to a button on the dash. I'd set the timers for maybe 20 seconds, and there would be two to guarantee it didn't stay engaged if one timer failed.
When the traffic light is about to turn green on a really icy day, you push the button. The valve allows some pressure to bleed out of one or the other pumps' circuits, and back to the unpresurized side.
Instant, temporary AWD.

The downside: If you ever had to have Honda swap out the rear diff, they'd have a hard time giving you your 'core fee' for a modded case.(although it would only involve two little holes, tapped and plugged)

'Curly'

[Racoon]

Instant, temporary AWD.
But if you just punch the accelerator when the front wheels slip RT4WD would engage anyways, although after a fraction of a second. At least it does for my 5 speed. That's the beauty of RT4WD.

JM2C

:)

[sunny123]

:shock: WOW, I just checked this thread in the morning, and everyone was so involved! Thanks for the info and to everyone that posted :mrgreen: . I previously owned the civic wagon, but then traded it in and upgraded to the 03EX-L. My Dad was the one who told me about towing our V on a flatbed truck, otherwise we would damage the AWD system in the rear.

['Curly Q Links']

Racoon, I know it works that way, but I have a couple of GOOD reasons why I don't want to 'just punch the accelerator':

I have a 250' driveway that's less than perfectly level. If we've had three steady days of snow and then freezing rain, or a light snow on top of ice, punching the accelerator guarantees a sideways trip and half hour of shoveling.

Also, I feel there are already enough FWD 'road polishers' at the intersections, contributing their mindless antics: "Gun it, Zeb, that bus is a-coming awwwful fast!!"

I think it would just be too cool to have selective control of the AWD ! That's all :-) Stay safe. 'Curly'

[bigdongers]

does it really matter if you cant feel it working? if you car can drive through things like that 25cm of snow you experienced, what does it matter if you can feel it working or not? just be grateful that it works :)

however, with a bit more experience in the V, you will feel the RT4WD kicking in. its feels like a sudden jolt from behind you.

[phil17]

i think the purpose of realtime is so you can't feel it working that noticeably. can you imaging all the complains Honda'll be getting if we can actually "feel"it engaging either by a loud clunk or something? now that would be bad. i'm just glad it's working :) cause Winter aint over yet up north!

[Varmint]

But I can't help wonder what'd happen if you bypassed the clutch packs with a longer custom propshaft, eliminating the clutch packs and making it full time 4 wheel drive. Then, a set of air lockers front and rear. Dune Buggy heaven!

The short answer... you'd turn your driveshaft into a pretzel or scrub the treads off your tires. It's called "binding in the drivetrain". I mentioned this in the article above, but I didn't explain why. Here's the explanation:

Whenever you take a corner, the outside wheels take a different path than the inside wheels, right? Yeah, that's pretty easy to understand. We can even see it if we look at wet tire tracks on a dry road. The "open" differential between the half-shafts on most cars allows this to happen. A "limited slip" differential allows only a modest difference in speeds between half-shafts. Thus it can still power both wheels on the same axle.

Well the same is true when you look at the notion of locking from front to back. When you take a corner, the front of the car takes a wider path than the rear. Have you ever jumped a curb with just the inside rear tire? If so, then you've witnessed what I'm talking about. By locking the front and back, you prevent the drivetrain from being able to handle the two different speeds. So the drive-shaft would get twisted, or the tires would have to scrub off the difference.

I can almost here the replies. :mrgreen: "But Varmint! Plenty of other companies sell permanent AWD systems!"

Yep, that's true. But they use some form of center differential that allows the drivetrain to handle that twisting. Just like how a normal diff allows the tires on a single axle to turn at different speeds. With the RT4WD system, Honda gets around that need by only allowing the system to engage while there is slippage (slippery conditions), and shutting it back down asap. They have also built in a "cushion" by having one fluid pump be slightly larger than the other. that slack in the system allows for cornering without having the system engage.

[wildswing]

You can read the tech stuff in this honda document posted on the Quebec CR-V forum (with Honda Canada's permission) by fellow member gueb...

http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf

[cyemm]

But I can't help wonder what'd happen if you bypassed the clutch packs with a longer custom propshaft, eliminating the clutch packs and making it full time 4 wheel drive. Then, a set of air lockers front and rear. Dune Buggy heaven!

The short answer... you'd turn your driveshaft into a pretzel or scrub the treads off your tires. It's called "binding in the drivetrain". I mentioned this in the article above, but I didn't explain why. Here's the explanation:

Whenever you take a corner, the outside wheels take a different path than the inside wheels, right? Yeah, that's pretty easy to understand. We can even see it if we look at wet tire tracks on a dry road. The "open" differential between the half-shafts on most cars allows this to happen. A "limited slip" differential allows only a modest difference in speeds between half-shafts. Thus it can still power both wheels on the same axle.

Well the same is true when you look at the notion of locking from front to back. When you take a corner, the front of the car takes a wider path than the rear. Have you ever jumped a curb with just the inside rear tire? If so, then you've witnessed what I'm talking about. By locking the front and back, you prevent the drivetrain from being able to handle the two different speeds. So the drive-shaft would get twisted, or the tires would have to scrub off the difference.

I can almost here the replies. :mrgreen: "But Varmint! Plenty of other companies sell permanent AWD systems!"

Yep, that's true. But they use some form of center differential that allows the drivetrain to handle that twisting. Just like how a normal diff allows the tires on a single axle to turn at different speeds. With the RT4WD system, Honda gets around that need by only allowing the system to engage while there is slippage (slippery conditions), and shutting it back down asap. They have also built in a "cushion" by having one fluid pump be slightly larger than the other. that slack in the system allows for cornering without having the system engage.

OK, I didn't realize it was truly just a propshaft coming out of the front gearbox. Forget about pavement AWD, then. Still be fun in the dirt with everything locked, though. On second thought, no low range. Guess I'll just enjoy it for what it is and keep the pristine black paint pretty.

One question, though (I'm at work and can't open .PDF's)... does the clutch packs use silicon oil to engage, or is it a conventional style clutch with actual friction parts inside?

[Susky]

I've noticed that if I'm turning out of, say, a driveway, and there's gravel there, I can punch it and over-turn the front wheels (as they are slipping), causing the rears to engage, thus pushing the V straight forward (and not in the direction of my intended turn). It's a little disconcerting, but at least I know what's going on.

[Fenris]

here's a question.
Here in NY, they do the emissions part of the vehicle inspection by putting the wheels of the car on rollers and racing it up to 55MPH. How do they do that to the V without getting the 4WD to engage?

[CR-Vince]

here's a question.
Here in NY, they do the emissions part of the vehicle inspection by putting the wheels of the car on rollers and racing it up to 55MPH. How do they do that to the V without getting the 4WD to engage?

Make sure they don't do that. Tell the testing station that you've got a RT4WD CR-V and they should perform the idling tailpipe test only.

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/vehsafe.htm#einspect

In Texas, '96 and newer cars are only required to have an OBDII test

Emissions testing on newer cars feels like a big waste of time and money IMO. This was the first year that Fort Bend County participated in this nonsense, and with only two vehicles ahead of me, I waited two hours at the inspection station to get my coveted sticker. I'm already missing the safety-inspection-only days when I could be in and out of there in five minutes.

[Varmint]

Cyemm - Not sure. The clutch action is handled with wet clutch packs (several clutch plates stacked one in front of the other). As far as I know that's a conventional clutch action.

Susky - I've had the same thing happen while driving on soft gravel roads and snow. I've read many posts from permanent AWD owners (like subie folks) who swear on their life about the superiority of having the rear wheels get some power 100% of the time. Yet, they experience the same "plowing" when their front wheels lose traction. It's a normal characteristic of AWD, not something specific to RT4WD.

[cyemm]

Cyemm - Not sure. The clutch action is handled with wet clutch packs (several clutch plates stacked one in front of the other). As far as I know that's a conventional clutch action.

Susky - I've had the same thing happen while driving on soft gravel roads and snow. I've read many posts from permanent AWD owners (like subie folks) who swear on their life about the superiority of having the rear wheels get some power 100% of the time. Yet, they experience the same "plowing" when their front wheels lose traction. It's a normal characteristic of AWD, not something specific to RT4WD.Found the answer to my own question at home... it's NOT silicon oil, I don't know what's in the pump fluid but by looking at the cutaways there's no way it could be a silicon oil based pack.
There's NO actual contact of parts in a silicon clutch, the shearing/heating of the oil changes it's viscosity to the point that the oil itself transfers motion. There's too many check valves and passages for this. Conventional wet clutches are my guess, too.